lowest possible latency

theoldmusicman
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lowest possible latency

Postby theoldmusicman » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:41 am

I'm currently testing liveprofessor 2 now to see if I might like it better than multirack. So far so good, there are several things I like about lp2 that mr doesn't have. I'm currently running multirack native on a dante network into my x32 but I have to be careful of which plugins I use, and how many I use, or the latency starts to get noticeable even in foh. I think that the lowest latency is achieved using multirack soundgrid but I just can't justify the cost of the soundgrid system. So my question is; what is the best way to connect lp2 into the system to get the lowest possible latency?
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nikolai
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby nikolai » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Hi
The lowest possible latency would, in your case, be with the dante PCI card. However we have had some compatibility issues with this. Audinate was working on a fix, I have not checked the latest version of their drivers. But I can do that and get back to you.

You can then set the ASIO/CoreAudio buffer size as low as possible. how low you can set it without stutter/distortion would depend on the computer and the plugins.
Also Dante has a latency setting for the network.
In addition, raising the sample rate would improve latency, as long as you are able to keep the same buffer sizes.
64 Samples @ 48Khz is longer then 64 Samples @ 96Khz
But 64 Samples @ 48Khz is less time then 1024 @ 96Khz

So you would need to tweak these settings to a place where you get as little latency as possible while still getting stable audio

Hope this was a bit helpful
Nikolai
theoldmusicman
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby theoldmusicman » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:26 pm

Thanks! Problem is I run off of a laptop so I can't use a PCI card. The way I'm setup now is I have the dante expansion card in my x32, I come out of it with a cat5e to a 5 port gigabit hub. Then I plug my laptop into the hub with another cat5e out of the standard network port on the laptop. I use the hub because sometimes I plug in another laptop to record.
rapace312
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby rapace312 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi,

Nikolaï is talking about (if you use a laptop) putting a Dante PCIe card in a Thunderbolt PCIe chassis wich is possible with a Mac Book Pro Retina for example.

I am using the same way my RME AIO PCIe card in a Thunderbolt chassis with a MBP and i am between 4-6 ms roundtrip latency (depends on plugins i use) for FOH applications wich is great !

Hope this help


ps : forget about overpriced Waves Multirack and go LP2 now 8)
RME HDSPe AIO in a OWC Enclosure (PCIe -> Thunderbolt2)32spl Buffer Size /48khz or 96khz Sample Rate.
MacBookPro / OSX 10.11.1 El Capitan i7 2,5Ghz / 16G Ram

Check my Instagram : @Pacera312
theoldmusicman
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby theoldmusicman » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:21 am

l already have both Multirack and LP2.

So how are you connecting from your MBP to the PCIe? I have a Windows 10 laptop with USB and Firewire and LAN (RJ45) outs.
theoldmusicman
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby theoldmusicman » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:32 am

Thunderbolt. DUH! Brain off line, sorry. I wonder if anyone makes a PCIe chassis for a windows laptop? Need to google that and see.
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nikolai
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby nikolai » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:39 pm

Hi guys
There are PCI solutions for windows laptops, but together with the Dante PCI card it gets expensive.
We have had issues with the Dante pci card running on windows in 64 bit mode. Audinate are aware of this, just so you know.
theoldmusicman
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby theoldmusicman » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

nikolai wrote:Hi guys
There are PCI solutions for windows laptops, but together with the Dante PCI card it gets expensive.
We have had issues with the Dante pci card running on windows in 64 bit mode. Audinate are aware of this, just so you know.


Thanks!
rapace312
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby rapace312 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:05 pm

theoldmusicman wrote:Thunderbolt. DUH! Brain off line, sorry. I wonder if anyone makes a PCIe chassis for a windows laptop? Need to google that and see.


The chassis i was talking about is the same for Windows laptop (OWC/Sonnet), the thing is you need a thunderbolt-equipped laptop PC and a windows driver.
Only TB2 and now TB3/USB-C can provide the bandwith PCIexpress Audio Cards need.
I've tried my TB/PCIe chassis under Windows environnement (on a Dell M3800) but never had the same best latency and DSP results than on a MBP Retina so far.
RME HDSPe AIO in a OWC Enclosure (PCIe -> Thunderbolt2)32spl Buffer Size /48khz or 96khz Sample Rate.
MacBookPro / OSX 10.11.1 El Capitan i7 2,5Ghz / 16G Ram

Check my Instagram : @Pacera312
Gerry
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby Gerry » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:04 pm

Hi to the LP family!

I am measuring latency with using LP2 on a MacBook Pro Mid 2010 and the X32 system (X32 Compact + X32R as stage box).
Applying the X32-Firewire Interface 32/32 or 16/16 (48kHz):
LP2 telling me LP In: 3.0ms, LP Out 3.0ms
Applying the X32-USB-Interface 32/32 or 16/16 (48kHz):
LP2 telling me Lp In: 2.27ms, LP Out: 2.02ms
Applying the YAMAHA USB UR22-Interface (48kHz; 2 In, 2 Out):
LP2 telling me LP In: 1.77ms, LP Out 2.5ms

So my question is: What influences the latency LP2 generates using different interfaces?
Can I optimize something here?
Will the LP2 In and Out latency be drastically smaller using a DANTE or MADI card setting?
This to me seems to be the bottle neck.

My best latency configuration on the above mentioned setup (X32-USB 32/32, 48kHz, 32 samples in LP2) actually is:
7.71ms round trip latency (meaning from stage box signal In through LP2 to stage box signal Out, without any plugin inserted;
9.07ms round trip latency (meaning from stage box signal In through LP2 to stage box signal Out, with Waves plugin C6 (+1.3ms) inserted.

Calculation would be:
1.04ms X32 system (stage box In to stage box out, no Enhancer, no Limiter inserted); mesaured value
2.27ms LP2 In
2.02ms LP2 Out
0.7ms X32 USB-Interface In
0.7ms X32 USB-Interface Out
1.3ms Waves C6
total of 8.03ms

Real measurement tells me 9.07ms.
So my calculation is missing 1ms. Anyone an idea, where this is gone lost?

Thanks for any tips and tricks on that!
Gerry
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nikolai
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby nikolai » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:52 pm

Gerry wrote:Hi to the LP family!

I am measuring latency with using LP2 on a MacBook Pro Mid 2010 and the X32 system (X32 Compact + X32R as stage box).
Applying the X32-Firewire Interface 32/32 or 16/16 (48kHz):
LP2 telling me LP In: 3.0ms, LP Out 3.0ms
Applying the X32-USB-Interface 32/32 or 16/16 (48kHz):
LP2 telling me Lp In: 2.27ms, LP Out: 2.02ms
Applying the YAMAHA USB UR22-Interface (48kHz; 2 In, 2 Out):
LP2 telling me LP In: 1.77ms, LP Out 2.5ms

So my question is: What influences the latency LP2 generates using different interfaces?
Can I optimize something here?
Will the LP2 In and Out latency be drastically smaller using a DANTE or MADI card setting?
This to me seems to be the bottle neck.

My best latency configuration on the above mentioned setup (X32-USB 32/32, 48kHz, 32 samples in LP2) actually is:
7.71ms round trip latency (meaning from stage box signal In through LP2 to stage box signal Out, without any plugin inserted;
9.07ms round trip latency (meaning from stage box signal In through LP2 to stage box signal Out, with Waves plugin C6 (+1.3ms) inserted.

Calculation would be:
1.04ms X32 system (stage box In to stage box out, no Enhancer, no Limiter inserted); mesaured value
2.27ms LP2 In
2.02ms LP2 Out
0.7ms X32 USB-Interface In
0.7ms X32 USB-Interface Out
1.3ms Waves C6
total of 8.03ms

Real measurement tells me 9.07ms.
So my calculation is missing 1ms. Anyone an idea, where this is gone lost?

Thanks for any tips and tricks on that!
Gerry


Interesting.
I would say by nature, MADI has less latency then Dante.
As for the missing millisecond, I have no idea.
I can say that the 2.27/2.02 ms reported in LiveProfessor is acquired from the Audio Device, and I have seen that not all of them give exact values. like there is the buffer, but then there is also latency in AD/DA (if used) if the card has noth digital and AD/DA will it then report the highest, or keep them all in sync? etc,etc
So i bet it is the sound card.

1.3 ms waves is calculated from the number of samples reported by the plugin. usually spot on (at least with waves).
patrass
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby patrass » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:18 am

i think the only way to reduce the latency is using a real time OS with an optimised driver bypassing windows or osx
this is made by merging with masscore in the very low latency Pyramix version
but the system works only with the merging sound card and this RTOS need to build a driver for each soundcard model
the RTOS use one core just to drive the sound card
in merging masscore the round trip is arround 1.33ms with 128 track on a quad core I7(without the plugin latency)
they have an asio driver for their soundcard and the latency and the track count is realy different because of the asio driver layer
i think this is not possible to build a RTOS vst host without hardware compatibility limitation
may be possible with only one soundcard or sound card family (audinate have dante soundcard sale by several brand)
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Gerry
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby Gerry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:33 pm

Like this forum!

Complementing latency measurments with X-WSG card in X32 (compact):

For all who are interested and into latency measurements using LiveProfessor...
I already reported about using the X32 USB interface with LiveProfessor and Multirack, achieving roundtrip latency of 7.7ms @32 samples with both, on a MACbook Pro MID 2010 (SSD, 16GB),
where Multirack was using somewhat less CPU performance.
Keep in mind, that 1.03ms of the 7.7ms are used by X32 stage box SD16 anaolg IN to analog OUT.
Lately I have inserted the X-WSG Soundgrid interface card into the X32, doing comparing measurments again (only native, since I do not have a Soundgrid Server yet).

Used personal computer: MACbook Pro Mid 2010 (16GB RAM, SSD-Harddisk,
Spotlight function (mds_stores, md_worker)
and virus scanners deactivated, no scheduling.

Host software: [b]LiveProfessor
Used effects (plugins): 3x Vocal-Chain with WAVES plugins F6, CLA-2A, C6
2x A-Git-Chain with WAVES plugins Renaissance Axx (Kompressor), Doubler
1x Parallel-Effekt WAVES TrueVerb
1x Parallel-Effekt HOFA AlgoVerb
Configurations: 64 Samples
Soundgrid buffer of 104 for X-WSG-Card
X32 configured to „ext. Sync Card“
Performance: DSP performance <40% (display LiveProfessor)
roundtrip latency of 6,1ms,
adding C6 (1,3ms Plugin-Latenz): 7,4ms trouble-free.

Host software: [b]Multirack
Used effects (plugins): Like above, but instead of HOFA Algoverb, Waves
Renaissance Reverb (sadly Multirack is not supporting
standard VST-plugins), as well as an additional Aphex-Exciter
in each of the two A-git-effect-chains.
Configurations: 32 Samples (!)
Soundgrid Buffer of 104 for X-WSG-Card
X32 configured to „ext. Sync Card“
Performance: DSP-performance <70% (display Multirack)
Roundtrip latency of 4,7ms (!),
adding C6 (1,3ms plugin latency): 6,1ms trouble-free.

A professional musician using InEars (voc, a-git) did not hear this delay (6,1ms) during a complete
soundcheck afternoon and night concert!

In short:
With LP2 from USB, 7.7ms, to X-WSG, 6.1ms.
With Multirack from USB, 7.7ms, to X-WSG, 4.7ms

Nikolai, you wrote that you have just ordered a WAVES Soundgrid Server and are going to test
LiveProfessor running Soundgrid Studio. I am very curious about the results, because I like
the GUI and possibilities of LP2 a lot more than Multirack.

For more informations to come (for example on using Soundgrid Server) see blogs on http://www.x32userconfigs.com
https://www.x32userconfigs.com/epages/7 ... xt_Plugins

Have nice Easter Days!
Gerry
rapace312
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby rapace312 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:27 pm

Nice test !!

In my opinion, besides all latencies and interface points, the main thing is :

Waves soundgrid/server/whatever = Waves plugins only = very expensive products.

LiveProfessor = virtually all existant plugins on earth = virtually all audio card = not limited by any protocol or hardware = onthego = best latencies ever = no such debate finally :D
RME HDSPe AIO in a OWC Enclosure (PCIe -> Thunderbolt2)32spl Buffer Size /48khz or 96khz Sample Rate.
MacBookPro / OSX 10.11.1 El Capitan i7 2,5Ghz / 16G Ram

Check my Instagram : @Pacera312
JJ2013
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Re: lowest possible latency

Postby JJ2013 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Hi all,

I am using LP 2 and wanted to ask about latency and its relationship with USB ports.....

My PC has several USB ports (they are all used, WiFi enabled mouse, keyboard, USB/Audio Interface and the 4th one for my external monitor) and I understand that a large # of these may add to latency. Now, I am not sure whether and how many of these USB ports are "daisy-chained" internally in the PC, but I wonder
if any of you have suggestions on how I could best "optimize" use of USB ports while keeping latency to a minimum? I would also think that plugging devices into USB ports that have been daisy-chained to other USB channels will not be ideal from a speed of communications angle. I also bought a USB Hub, but that is basically daisy-chaining USB ports and may not be ideal and will not improve speed of communications.

Note, I don't want to use corded mice or keyboards for a few reasons with one of the most important ones being that I use LP 2 in a "live" application involving short-wave radio (not just receiving but transmitting) and the room I am operate in has Radio Frequency (RF) present. Cords, cables and wires don't mesh well with RF at times as that RF may induce currents on those wires resulting in RF interference creeping into the audio which is obviously not desirable!

I am also contemplating (1 year down the road) acquiring (or building) a gaming "grade" PC which has a quad-core i7 processor, SSD etc., to help cut latency down to minimum (some of the better plug-ins are software emulations of classic hardware processors that cause considerable latency when used by my current hardware). Not that using LP 2 itself would necessitate such a move, but I may have a software defined radio plugged into the PC in future which makes it necessary to have a machine with a lot more number crunching power than my current dual-core i5 equipped lap-top.

Any thoughts or recommendations would be highly appreciated!

Cheers,
Juha

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